| Author | Message | ||
     Alee Intermediate Member Username: Alee Post Number: 137 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: N/A |
Welcome Johnno, I'm sure there are people here to help you with your questions. I recommend you reading the rose propagation guide in this forum. it has got the answers to most of your questions. | ||
| Johnno New member Username: Johnno Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2008 Rating: N/A |
Hi all, I have recently taken a keen interest in roses and would like to ask if any one can help me with a few questions I have.... Where can I get hold of canes for grafting..? How to strike canes and what time of the year is it best to do so...? Can I grow my own canes if yes,what are the best ones to get and from where...? I live at Port Augusta , South Australia where the weather is hot and dry.......bearing that in mind is there any other extra steps to take, with regards to the above questiins...?? I would appreciate any help at all , thanking you all.. | ||
| Ozeboy Advanced Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 367 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
Dao I thought I had made it quite clear that I had resigned due to frustration through getting nowhere building a $100 tool for $10. Your original drawing did not have realistic sizes and the drop sides for the tenth time did not work out at all. That was your original drawing, nothing else just a drawing of a blade that did not work. However with a number of modifications this problem was solved and is now a really slick cutting tool. Probably you did not read my post correctly regarding the parts component list. Does this look like an incomplete tool? My how to use use details suggest that it will cut and transfer buds under your 10 seconds benchmark. Why would you go wandering through Bunnings looking for anything thinking it will work well? The biopsy punch steel is stainless and I had sourced the exact steel in various diameters 2 metres long. When I said to save disappointment I would make the tools, they would have been complete and ready to go. How efficient ? well a lot faster than any other method. Why would you want to bud hundreds when I have used it frequently and had success with difficult roses?. I am quite happy to give you all the details you need to make a successful tool and leave it in your hands. As previously stated I have resigned from this project and never want to hear the words budding and tools again. You keep visiting fairy land and come up with how good it is and now give sizes that I have given to you months ago. Your mention of time and effort to do a project, unfortunately we will all be dead before that happens at this rate. You made mention of a tool maker in the USA that you gave details of the tools application to and after a couple of Emails he disappeared. All I can say " What an intelligent fellow he was ". Dao I don't want to go over and over this again, I will make my own tools for personal use based on your idea but don't want to be drawn into discussion again. I am sick of it and will not be reading this thread again. Go well and be happy. | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2629 Registered: 07-2003  Rating: N/A |
Ozeboy, you don't seem to see that I'd like a complete tool according to the high level original design. It's up to you to decide on the dimensions to fit the rose buds. What we need is a complete tool according to the original design. Otherwise it's much easier to buy the smallest leather puncher and manually sharpen the edge which will do the job of cutting the buds without any fuss. However cutting the buds is not enough. We need a tool that will support all the actions, and it must do that within 10 seconds. Then that's not all. We must be able to demonstrate that such a tool will work in real life. I don't want a never ending journey. The truth is that we are only at the very beginning of that journey. I understand your feeling. But I often found that people laugh at me when I estimated the work requirement because my estimation was usually 10 times what others thought it should be. I will complete my original design using whatever things I can find around bargain stores, Office Works, Bunnings, ... It looks like impossible to find a company to make the parts I need. I will just look at things I can lay my hands on, break them apart to get the parts I need and cobble them together. | ||
| Ozeboy Advanced Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 366 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
Dao, this business is going on and on and you keep mentioning make shift punches and things used in other industries that will do a sort of a job together with ideas shown in most grafting books. You mention going back to basics, that's where I found you with a metal pen body, an excellent idea and the sizes given to me were in cm. Please go back to basics and hope you find something lying around the house that will do the job. Why didn't you clarify in the early stages that you wanted to stay with the metal pen or part of a child's tool set. I would be extremely pleased if you keep me out of any future discussions on budding and tools as you seem to want a never ending story. Please accept my budding tool resignation herewith so I can get back to enjoying the other parts of the forum and of coarse smelling the roses. Go well Dao and keep doing a fantastic job keeping the forum going. | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2626 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
Rocky, I figured out that due to the super efficiency of the process, tiny scions will survive. That means sizes between 3mm, 4mm, 5mm and 6mm are the possible ones to cover for all roses. A small rose like The Fairy would need 3mm size to cut cleanly. If you take the percentage of bark areas to compare. The leaf bud's area and the extra bark area surrounding the leaf bud would work at ratio 1:1. In traditional budding I would say that the extra bark area should be about 3-4 times the size of the leaf bud area. The extra bark area provides a minimum amount of nutrients to the leaf bud in the period of 1 week before the healing really happens in T budding or chip budding. The proposed patching method using this tool will reduce the size of the scion so that the ratio will be 1:1 and the healing time to about 1-2 days. The rapid cut and transfer plus minimal bruise to the cambium veins allows sap flow to happen rapidly between the host and the scion. That's why the healing is faster and that requires little nutritional support from the extra bark surrounding the leaf bud. If you can find a set of oval blades from 3-6mm, we will solve the problem. Then the only left over problem is how the tool will accomplish the tasks of all the other tools combined. I have worked all this out. I think Ozeboy is on same thought with me that posting the design here won't be a wise idea. We would try to produce the tool and send it to people who would like to try them on real propagation (like rosemeadow and justus2) to have a shot at it. I personally like to see about 200 roses produced using this tool to gather statistics about speed, success rate, quality at 6 months and the quality of the graft union (the most striking feature of it). I have produced a few seemingly perfect grafts, but people are right to doubt that the idea will work on a larger scale. I think we have been on this for too long. I am going to chase that company to get the biopsy puncher 5mm and try to produce a wooden handle and cobble together a test unit using materials found round the house. We must get some trial done early next spring. Ozeboy, I think the right way is to go back to basics and source the blade which is roughly 5x2x150 (L x W x H). The handle itself must be made separately either by handy craft or woodtuning. Once I make the wooden handle, we will source the blade either from buying disposable biopsy puncher to get the stainless blade or get that company you know to make a high quality hard-steel blade. | ||
| Rockys68 New member Username: Rockys68 Post Number: 6 Registered: 04-2008 Rating: N/A |
I found a manufacturer in the USA that makes elliptical biopsy punches (Huot Instruments). Unfortunately the smallest one right now is 8 mm x 20 mm, which is a bit large. Dao and Ozeboy, what do you think the ideal size would be for all-around grafting use? | ||
| Ozeboy Advanced Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 365 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
All Budders and Grafters out there. Its pretty simple to make something at home as most of the cutters Dao showed has been demonstrated in any good grafters handbook. I used Olfa snap blades set in timber with epoxy putty. They work really well, one has the blades set 6mm apart for the vertical cut and another has the blades set 15mm apart for the horizontal cut. The patch bud fits perfectly. I did refer these to Dao when we first spoke about the project only to get a very negative reply from him. However the round oval ( Dao Tool ) is in a class of its own as the rootstock is cut and eyeless bark discarded, then within 2 seconds the bud is cut from the rose cane and transferred in the tool to the rootstock. The blade is placed in the rootstock cut out and the bud is pushed out of the tool into the rootstock for a perfect fit. Its so fast and makes a perfect fitting bud. The big advantage of Dao's idea is that there is no time lost removing the wood from the back of the bud like there is with most other methods. Also winter is almost here and I can still remove buds without wood attached which should extend the budding time. I have sourced some tube for the small and large tools however you may all wish to make your own so will sit on this and not proceed any further. The tool parts list would go something like this. 60 mm length tube. Internal bushing for push out rod. Push out rod. Push rod return spring. Wooden handle. That's about all you have to make for the tool so go to it. Due to Dao becoming hot and cold on the idea plus his lack of response when I worked on this project I will cease forth with to do anything further. The prototypes, tube and sundry items have to date cost me nearly $200 and a lot of time. When I mentioned I would make these tools he came out with a lot of alternative grafting methods that are quite common in grafting books. Seems he does not want me involved so being a person of principals I will leave his idea and tool manufacturing with him and wish him well. I do feel sorry for the people who wasted time reading all the prattle about budding with a no tool result but who knows, Dao might come up with something in the future as he is very resourceful. Hope the descriptions and parts list will give you all an idea how to make your own. I am fed up to the back teeth with budding tools and am sorry to have wasted so much time developing the manufacturing methods. Despite all this I am pleased to be a forum member and look forward to reading your posts. Dao,I feel nothing has changed between us and have no ill feeling towards you. Ozeboy | ||
| Justus2 Member Username: Justus2 Post Number: 62 Registered: 03-2008 Rating: N/A |
This give me an excellent view of how everything must be set up now. Tks.!! | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2621 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
Forgot to add another simple home made tool for cutting predictable patch width. As the canes are of different sizes, you will often end up with the budwood slightly thicker than the rootstock. This means the scion patch can be a little narrower than the hole on the rootstock. But this is fine as you just align the patch on one side of rectangular the hole. In this way patch budding is fairly fast too (you don't need to trim). But it will surely look a bit ugly.  That's why I want to design one tool, and all of these items are no longer needed. | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2620 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
Justus2, using a stencil will work for T budding. Infact I would recommend you to go to a chemist shop and ask them you buy for you pack of large scalpel blades that has a curved shape and a suitable handle. I did mention this in the guide but did not include a photo. The curved scalpel (sickle shape) allows you to cut a chip scion evenly on both sides with a single downward movement. You will need a large blade because I find the blade a little fragile to deal with tough budwood. It's best to use young budwood and cut a thinner chip scion as it's softer (avoid injury). The only trouble with this is that you may want to change knife when you cut the T on the host. That slows down you down significantly. For now, you surely will need to use T budding technique because patch budding is painfully slow when you need to make over 50 grafts. The patch scion is also very fragile and harder to handle. Here are all what you need for T and patch budding  The toy chisel you in the picture is very useful. You sharpen the 2 corners and dull the middle so that you can use it to push the bark off the wood using the blunt edge. The sharp corners allow you to trim the access skin off the scion in patch budding. You can use it to push the skin flap up for inserting the chip scion in T budding as well. The nice thing about using the sickle-shape scalpel is that you get razor sharp quality and even cut. This will reduce bruising and enhance the union (surgical quality). Surely you can get a professional quality budding knife and get most of the qualities in one tool. You can work faster too. But you can only do T budding at high speed. | ||
| Justus2 Member Username: Justus2 Post Number: 55 Registered: 03-2008 Rating: N/A |
Duhhh....I just re-read your post...I now realize that you have told me how to make a little patching tool. This I will do and make some practice cuts, maybe later tomorrow evening when I find the time. I will let you know later how they turn out. | ||
| Justus2 Member Username: Justus2 Post Number: 54 Registered: 03-2008 Rating: N/A |
Yes, I am one of those who are very anxious to try out the budding tool. I un-ashamedly admit it. Is this process you explain in detail the same as your patching video? I have watched it several times and I know the process well. I have never done patch before but do plan to do some when it is time to start grafting. (The bark isn't slipping enough yet) Tomorrow morning (Sunday night here right now) I will be beginning my own search to find something such as you describe for making the tool, so I will check out various sources...will have to see what I am able to come up with. I think Alee had a good idea that we haven't ruled out yet as an alternative....and that is the use of a stencil. I had already thought of it but didn't say anything because I was so fixiated on your tool. I will post any follow up that I have on my end here. | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2616 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
It looks like some people cannot wait to try it out. I started on simple sharpened tube like what Ozeboy said. I was awe-struck by the improvement the method offered. It all comes down to quality of the graft and the saving of time as the grafts took rapidly. I am still waiting for my biopsy puncher which will give me the razor sharp blade made by an industrial manufacturing line. It will allow me to test it further. A disposable biopsy puncher is typically offered for $15/eac. That means when there is demand, the cost of production is not that high. Certainly this kind of product does not last that long. I think the blade would last at most 1000 applications which will produce 500 grafts at most. That's why we need disposable blades rather than whole disposable unit. I hope to get this biopsy puncher and modify it into the desirable shape or simply take the blade out and create my own wooden handle for it. Then Ozeboy, Rosemeadow and whoever else interested can try it. It's a real shame that I no longer have a back yard to test things out in large volume myself. I am going to remind the supplier about the order. I asked for size 5mm that they did not have in stock so it would take time for them to get these in. Justus2, while waiting for this, I can show you what you can do to get the near kind of quality I have in mind. Try this patch budding process. 1/ Make a little tool yourself by getting a small lump of wood, use very slim saw to carve 2 parallel groves about 1cm apart. 2/ Insert 2 paint scrapping razor blades ($2 pack from bargain shops) This tool will do very good cuts of fixed height. You use this tool to cut the bark of rootstock and rose budsticks. 1/ Cut the rose budstick first, strip a dormant bud and put the skin into a clean bowl of water. 2/ Cut the host rootstock same way, strip a patch of bark smaller then the scion 3/ Fit the rose skin scion patch on and cut off the left over skin. You get a perfect patch this way. This process is very slow though. Then tie the graft by whatever yarn or budding tape. This process will produce the highest quality graft. The improvements on this process by the tool I am designing are speed, graft shape and less bruising which deliver a little higher quality plus a much nicer looking graft which fools people into thinking the rose is just a natural lateral from the rootstock. The tool I am working on works on exactly same principles as patch budding. It just takes the skill and complexity away from the user. All you need to do is a punch, a twist and a push to cleanly remove a patch. I have drawn up a final the design for nearly 2 years. Simple as it is, we just could not find a place to make it. I think it's possible to a place to make it overseas but unless it's possible to recoup the money, who would want to spend $1000 just for fun (that may not even produce a good tool)? That's why I think making a few pieces that some one can use and produce hundreds of high quality plants will produce the statistics for decision making. | ||
| Ozeboy Advanced Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 363 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
Just like to clear up one thing Rosemeadow mentioned about the bud coming away leaving virtually no wood on the bud. The prototype I showed Rosemeadow and did a demonstration bud for her had the drop sides. Dao incorporated this in his last drawing thinking it would cut better in one action.Unfortunately when twisting the bud off it scrapes the wood so a little comes away. This tool will be modified to have a flat bottom returning it to its original shape that produces buds wood free so quickly. The good news is that I have located some 12.7 mm ( Half inch ) stainless tube which will arrive on Wednesday. This will make the large tools for large canes like HT's. Stainless is pretty soft but will do a good job if sharpened regularly. | ||
| Justus2 Member Username: Justus2 Post Number: 51 Registered: 03-2008 Rating: N/A |
That sure was a good one on me. Ha Ha....when I read Dao's comment, it seemed as though he was receiving buds for budding, especially with him saying "they should work fine". Things aren't always what they appear to be! | ||
| Ozeboy Advanced Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 362 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
Justus2, Rosemeadow is right, just sent some buds to show size and shape with no wood on the back of the bud. You are right about getting the bud and rootstock together as quick as possible. However I knew a guy who who grew minatures when they were very popular, he used to watch television at night while cutting buds from canes then drop them into a bucket of water. Each bucket was labelled so as to keep varieties separate.Next morning out he would go and bud nearly all day with the buds cut that night. I have found a supplier of seamless carbon tube and have requested samples, however they supply stock size and pack only which is 6 metres long and 100 lengths to a pack. Thats the trouble when developing new products so the search goes on. | ||
| Rosemeadow Advanced Member Username: Rosemeadow Post Number: 325 Registered: 01-2008 Rating: N/A |
Justus2, Ozeboy only did this so Dao could see what shape the new tool cuts and how it doesn't take any wood or not much. Something like that. | ||
| Justus2 Member Username: Justus2 Post Number: 50 Registered: 03-2008 Rating: N/A |
This is just out of curiosity...(Ozeboy) you sent Dao some buds that had been cut...in the mail taped to a paper? This seems incredulous to me, especially in the light of the fact that budding has to be done speedily to ensure the severed bud doesn't dry out before tying in to the rootstock. Wouldn't it have been easier to just have posted him a a few short canes and let him cut the buds so they would have been fresher? Is there any remote possibility the buds will take even though they are shriveled and somewhat dried out? If they take, this is the most amazing news to me. Please keep us posted on how they do. If the buds take, this may open a new way for me to get buds from friends who live a distance from me. Very interesting, indeed! | ||
| Justus2 Member Username: Justus2 Post Number: 49 Registered: 03-2008 Rating: N/A |
I have read and re-read yours and Dao's posts on the tool Ozeboy. I am not fortunate enough to have a shop available that I might get to help me with shaping and sharpening a tube for me, and I don't have facilities/tools here at home either. Thank you for your willingness to help the rest of us obtain a reasonable facsimile of the budding tool. Again, do remember...we aren't looking for a 'professional's' tool...just something to help these present hobbyists be a little more successful in our endeavors that is on our level of acumen. Everything you and Dao are doing is worthy of a big "THANK YOU" ! | ||
| Ozeboy Advanced Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 361 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
Everyone interested in the tool please read my suggestion on how to make one from a steel tube. It will work fine but remember both ends are not the same so mark one end with a drop of paint so as to get a perfect fit. This unhardened tube will squash readily but the edge won't last forever before it needs a rub on an oil stone. I will try to source some metal tube and try to make some very cheap. They won't do a professional but should do a hobbyist. That's the best I can do. I know a few people want to do a few buds as a trial after hearing all about this idea of Dao's so don't want to disappoint anyone. Dao wants a $145 tool for $10 so lets try a very cheap version which should work well. Will try not to let you down. | ||
| Rosemeadow Advanced Member Username: Rosemeadow Post Number: 317 Registered: 01-2008 Rating: N/A |
I want to try it too Justus2. As I said somewhere earlier I think it maybe good for kids too, who are interested in growing things. Far better than knifes and razor blades, perhaps. | ||
| Justus2 Member Username: Justus2 Post Number: 47 Registered: 03-2008 Rating: N/A |
Okay, with all that said Dao, that just fits mine and my husband's situation. We are in the process of setting up our own nursery business. We will not be wholesale retailers. We will grow our own stock from seeds or cuttings. I have been in the process of procuring stock the last 10 weeks which includes the older roses to avoid propagation rights issues. I am the very person who needs such a tool as I plan on doing all my grafts at my business. I don't need to do 2000 at day, only 100-200 a day for about a week which means I will need accuracy in getting takes to avoid losses. At this point in time, just forget about trying to convince the "professionals" and get a working model to help those on this forum, who by the way, are the ones truly interested in what you have and what you have to say. What is the point of telling all of us about this wonderful thing you have done, only to hold it at arm's length and tell us to go get a pack of razor blades? That is the cruelest cut of all, don't you think? I say this in the kindest way possible. Just think of the "word of mouth" advertising you would lose by not letting some of us "amateurs" try it out. I see the possibility of my use of this tool being promulgated in the Rose society here, and before you know it, there would be a demand for it and retailers would soon be clamoring for it to be on their shelves. What do you say? Let us have a go at it!! | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2613 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
Ozeboy, I got the buds in the mail. As you sticked them on paper, the humidity has been drawn complete out of them. They are all dry and shrivelled so it's hard to judge. As long as they cut and snapped out of the cane very quickly without fray, they should work fine. I personally think that it's very early in the game. Peole can spend $2 for a pack of razor blade and perfect perfect budding. As hobbyist they only do a dozen every now and then, there is little need for anything fancy that costs over $10. We really need to show superior graft quality and ease of use so that those who have no experience can succeed consistently at a few grafts they do each year. For the professionals, it's harder to convert them. If a tool does not perform 2000 grafts per day and achieve 99% success rate and better quality grafts at faster speed than what they are doing, they are not interested. I think we should take it slow and produce a couple of hundreds rose grafts of superior quality than commercial products before thinking about making it available to others. I beleive that unless it's a clearly superior result, there is no need to make people feel that we simply reinvent the wheel. | ||
| Ozeboy Advanced Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 360 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
Alee, I sent Dao a bud cut with the new tool about 2 weeks ago.He replied saying " There was no buds in the envelope". Actually there was one loose so he may have lost it when opening the envelope. About a week ago I sent him about 8 buds taped to a page and so far have not heard anything. Dao has been involved with speeding up the site with new equipment so I am sure he will get around to the buds shortly. I asked the guy to give me a price for 20 but have not heard so it would appear that he can't make money from it as it would be too expensive to make for its application. I suggested $75 Aust would be its top price, anything over that would price it out of propagators reaches. Time will tell, I might hear from him in the next couple of weeks but don't hold your breath. I have another idea if the guy does not want to make them. Go to a hobby or model aeroplane shop and buy a 12 to 15 mm ID steel tube. Cut to about 55 to 60 mm long. Place this in a drill and sharpen the end by spinning the tube on an oil stone until sharp. Then squeeze together sharpened end to about 5 to 6 mm wide. Cut a rod or nail so as to act as a bud push out rod as the buds will stay in the tool without it. Make a handle by using a piece of 25mm diam wooden dowl stick about 125mm long. Drill a hole in this large enough for the tube to fit through the hole very close to one end. Now fill the hole with epoxy putty to hold the blade (Tube) firmly in place. You now have a budding tool and have to learn how to use it. Dao had better tell you how to use it as I don't want to steal all his thunder. Its his idea and it works fantastic removing buds without the wood even at this time of year. I have made 2 tools, a 5mm for small and medium buds and a 7mm for large buds similar to what you get with HT roses.Its so fast as I found removing the wood at this time of year without it makes budding very slow. Off comes the bud and no wood, have never had it pull a bud off that has a hole right through the bud itself. If Dao is too tied up with computers and wishes me to explain how to use it then so be it. Recently I budded a lot of very small buds and used a knife as the canes were too small to use a tool on. I would suggest you try to get results T or chip budding as some very small canes are just not suitable for the tool. Hope this helps, I am sure the home made tool is not beyond anyone with the average home workshop. Best of luck. | ||
| Alee Member Username: Alee Post Number: 41 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: N/A |
Any news on the budding tool? | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2577 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
> Dao ....what problems have you encountered with budding in the summer? I have always budded into early July with no problems. Several possible problem such as the heat may make rose sleep (not enough sap flow). There may be too much blackspot disease (no sap flow). Surely you have very little chance doing T and patch budding when this happens. YOu can still do chip budding but I would not recommend this for roses. > As for moving the bush, I think it would be a better idea to wait until this fall for winter dormancy to set in. Early spring is OK too. After you get the cuttings for rooting, the bush is bare. Cut it back even further, leave few leaves and try to get a big rootball. If you water it every day for 4 weeks, it will have enough feeders to live and grow good leaves in autumn. That saves a bit of time as next year you will get enough cuttings to propagation again. Just make sure "NO FERTILE SOIL" to be used when you plant the bush. You should use only clean soil lacking nitrogen. You can put fertile soil under and around it, put clean soil in, before you plant the bush. This prevent rotting of the roots. > I need further clarification on these points: (1) On cuttings for regular bushes, you say I need about 8/10 nodes...how many will be under soil? It does not matter really. Do what you feel best for your area. (2) And when I am ready to bud, I have usually tried NOT to have a lateral between the bud and the soil level. Is this correct? Yes, absolutely. The spot where you do teh graft is below all the laterals. > (3) When you pull the pots up to bud (short cuttings), you do leave the rooted understock in the pot to bud,... right? The few roots you are talking about losing is the ones that are perhaps growing out of the bottom of the pot into the garden, correct? Yes, that's the way you nurse potted rose without having to put fertile soil into the pot at the time you root the cuttings. Fertile soil actually inhibits rooting. I suggest this because you need to keep the roots undisturbed if you want to speed the growth to race with the heat. You want to be able to bud before the heat sets in. If you use standard rose pots, you can afford to put some fertile soil at the bottom at the time you put the cuttings in. Just make sure the cuttings do not touch that layer of fertile soil. The other reason is that burying the pots keep roots cool in summer and promote better growth. I generally avoid summer as there is too much blackspot in my area due to humidity. Also we do not have good budwood in summer. Late summer is good as the buds want to grow again. | ||
| Justus2 Member Username: Justus2 Post Number: 38 Registered: 03-2008 Rating: N/A |
Dao ....what problems have you encountered with budding in the summer? I have always budded into early July with no problems. July and August are our hottest months of the year. I learned from a man here who always had newly budded roses in the summer, so I never knew there could be a problem with it. I plan to follow your instructions with the new multiflora canes/cutting to the 'T' and am looking to be successful. I wasn't able to get my misting system set up today, other issues came up I had to deal with. It is at the top of my list for Tuesday morning. (It is a little after 3 pm here at this time Monday evening and it is probably early Tuesday morning there now.) As for moving the bush, I think it would be a better idea to wait until this fall for winter dormancy to set in. The summer heat here is murderous and could easily kill the bush before new feeder roots could grow to support it's massive size, don't you think? I'll just harvest the canes for now. I need further clarification on these points: (1) On cuttings for regular bushes, you say I need about 8/10 nodes...how many will be under soil? (2) And when I am ready to bud, I have usually tried NOT to have a lateral between the bud and the soil level. Is this correct? If not, advise as to a better way, pls. (3) When you pull the pots up to bud (short cuttings), you do leave the rooted understock in the pot to bud,... right? The few roots you are talking about losing is the ones that are perhaps growing out of the bottom of the pot into the garden, correct? Okay, enough for now...sorry to to query you so much. You do seem to be a living manual for rose how-to and are the perfect go-to person! Thanks so much for the specifics I ask for. It is much appreciated! | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2575 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
Justus, congrats! You have hit a gold mine for rooting and budding. Apart from getting the cuttings, you should be able to move the rootstock bush over to your property. It will take a lot of work to get a big rootball so that the bush will continue to grow more rootstock for you next year. You will be getting a lot of cuttings of various age. Some will be weeks old. Some will be months old. When you make standards, you cannot use weeks old canes. You need mature months old ones. My general rule of thumb is to find all the ultra long ones for making weepers first. Then look for the long ones for making standards. Finally the rest go into making normal bush roses. You need to add about 20cm (roughly 1 foot) into your calculation when you make standards/weepers. Short cuttings --- As you will have misting, you can keep 2-3 sets of leaves for your short cuttings. That will help them to root fine. Best place would be one that has morning Sun and shade in afternoon. You will get near 100% if you have any kind of misting at all. The hardest issue here is how to root them so that you can do budding immediately before it's too hot for budding. For this you may have to do the following things 1/ Use longer and younger cuttings (8-10 nodes), keep 4 half-sets of leaves 2/ Use misting to get the roots strike rapidly 3/ Use small pots, and bury the pots in soil in your rooting bed. Later you pull the pots up without need for transplanting. 4/ Plant the pots into a fertile bed of soil after rooting to force them to grow new leaves quickly. The above 4 steps will make sure you get viable young rootstocks rapidly in time for budding before summer sets in. The bark will slip easily for budding. You simply pull the pots up from the fertile soil bed when they are ready, but the roses and put the pots back. It's OK to lose some roots in the process. Standards/weepers --- This is tough as you don't have a cool end of winter to work with. So you need to work very slowly and carefully 1/ Pick mature canes, strip all leaves 2/ Do the milk container method if you like. Each container holds about 10 canes. Use a bamboo stick to tie them and fan them out 3/ Make sure they are sprayed regularly, best by automatic spraying with a timer. Just make sure they are not fertilised in any way. Only when you see roots, you separate them, wash the sand away, plant them in pots that has 2 layers of soil. The bottom layer is fertile. The top layer is just clean sandy rooting mix. Keep them sprayed for another 2 weeks. Once their roots get into the fertile soil, they start to grow well. You will need the top growth to generate enough sap flow before budding is possible. It's likely that you won't get to this stage until late summer. So your budding time will be autumn (rather than late spring). Even though you can cheat by doing chip budding (I know OZeboy does not beleive this, but soon he will be able to compare the grafts for strength), but I strongly suggest you wait and do patch budding or T budding. You will need the strength of patch budding to create the best standards and weepers. On the budding and tie issue, I beleive that T budding and the use of a thick rubber band as I illustrated will be fine. There is no real need for tying properly with a broad yarn or budding tape. Picking the rose buds at the time they want to grow is best. Just avoid summer and late autumn. | ||
| Ozeboy Advanced Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 353 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
Rosemeadow, You can only bud the growing rootstock with buds that are also growing well. Here is a short list of what I do whether its same as the other guys doesn't matter. As I previously mentioned budding is something you will develop to your own technique as you go along. Have the parent rootstock growing well at Christmas and cut the long canes which are then cut to about an 8" length removing all eyes except the top 2. Then plant in rows about 3 to 4 inches deep allowing for budding between the ground and the bottom bud.Plant wide enough so you can wrap the tape. Sometimes if in a hurry I just cut the lawn and push a spike into the ground then plant the rootstock in that hole and then I have the job of clipping weeds until budded. After budding in March and April I don't worry about them just make sure they are moist. If budding in pots you will never get it right its either too wet or too dry but in the ground its usually moisture consistent. If you take the buds at the right stage of growth don't worry about taking off the plastic tape but if they had started to shoot then don't wrap them totally, leave the bud unwrapped. Just wrap above and below. I have seen buds left wrapped for 12 months and still OK. and the buds not activated until the following season. Don't use fertiliser at any stage until the rose shoots are starting to harden up. Now look back to when you cut the canes at Christmas and took all the root stock you needed. At that stage cut off all the excess canes with a mower or tractor and slasher as you want to have young green hardened canes for next season. Some hobbyists propagators plant rootstock in April but when on acres water is expensive and labour is usually in short supply so don't look after anything longer than you have to. The budded rootstock is activated in September by cutting off the rootstock above the bud. You can cut rootstock again in October and bud before Christmas but this uses a lot of water so I stick to March April budding only unless something special comes up that I want to bud. The rootstock I cut back last December will be perfect for cutting and planting the next season around Christmas. Regards which type of budding technique well thats up to you. Chip budding is used with a lot of other type plants and has been proven superior to T budding in trials done by departments like the CSIRO. T budding is faster but the Dao budding tool ( Plate Budding ) is very fast and should prove better than the other two methods. Only time will tell but my experiments to date have lead me to this conclusion. I did T bud quite a few this season but have reverted back to chip budding which can be done over a longer period. This is a bit of a run down on handling rootstock only as Dao has given you tuition on budding. It may not be what others do but its what I try to do though family, sickness and other things sometimes get me a little out of this routine. Hope it helps but you will come up with your own system and ways to handle propagation. | ||
| Justus2 Member Username: Justus2 Post Number: 32 Registered: 03-2008 Rating: N/A |
I'm excited for you Rosemeadow for the experience you and your child are gaining. I hope all your work has not been in vain. I can surely understand your exuberance in wanting to get these bud sticks done. Aren't you all going into Winter now? We are well into Spring. My husband and I were clearing some woods to the front of our home, and I casually told my husband I had to be sure to watch where I stepped for the snakes might be out. About 5 minutes later, my husband said, "It's a good thing you thought about the snakes, there is one right there". It was less than a meter from where I had been sitting! Yikes! You can be sure I was careful of my step while in the woods the rest of the day. The bright spot in my day was this: While we worked clearing the woods, a neighbor just to the other side called to my husband and asked him what he would charge her for clearing some bushes from the corner of her house. (she was afraid snakes might hiding under them) He knew that the day before I had mentioned to him I believed she had a rose growing there and I wanted to inquire of her for some cuttings. That was exactly the bush she wanted him to take down. He told her I had wanted some cuttings from it and that he would cut it down for free for the cuttings from it. Well, upon examining the rose bush, wonders of all wonders....it is a multiflora!! Since I discovered rose mosiac virus in my newest Dr. Huey rooted cuttings, I was in a quandary as to where I was going to get some good stock of multiflora. There it was right next door and she wants it taken down. The bush is a monstrosity....it looks to be about 1.5 meters high x 3 meters diameter. I saw lots of old growth in it, and there is some new succulent growth about a meter long already. Dao could you tell me what is the best method to do these canes? Our temps are currently 29.444 C. daytime and 18.333 C. nightime on the average. I know what to do if it were Autumn for hardwood. What shall I do with the new growth for cuttings with summer approaching? I will be checking the archives just in case you have info there I can use also. (Not all the cuttings will be canes for standards, but for regular size bushes.) Thanks in advance. (I will be setting up an area Monday morning for misting. I have some new coarse sand, Canadian peat and a new misting timer at hand. The shortest cycle is 7 minutes and the shortest duration is 5 seconds. I will probably use equal parts of peat and sand for the bedding. This area will be in full sun for 8 hours or longer. Will wait til you respond before cutting anything from the bush. ) | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2570 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
Rosemeadow, don't bud on the rootstocks that have not grown a fair bit of leaves. Also make sure the scion is inserted right under a growing lateral. Surely if you pull a rootstock out, do it and put it back, it will fail. The scion needs the sap flow from the leaves back to the root to cross it to survive. Also it needs warmth to survive. So you need to put the pots in the warmest area of your place. You tend to overdo it at the start. But that's fine. You will be able to see later which one survives and which of those will do well. This time of the year is real bad for budding however if you have a warm area in a green house with morning Sun, it wil work fine. | ||
| Rosemeadow Advanced Member Username: Rosemeadow Post Number: 276 Registered: 01-2008 Rating: N/A |
Roseman, Ozeboy and Dao, also Justus2 and everyone else, I did my first T budding today and I have got the bug now ! Also my almost 9 year old. She saw the tape and that got her curiosity, so she wanted to tie a bud in. My daughter did it so well that I let her tie the rest in after I had done the T budding. The last 3 she did the whole process on her own and had a real understanding of it, probaby more than me. We ran out of the prepared rootstocks we had, there was about 20, so we started on the other thiner rootstock cuttings I had altogether in a pot. I just use the one to, or my daughter did, to see how it would work. I pulled the rooted rootstock out and she laid it on the table and did the T-budding that way, then I replanted it. I am going to do the rest like this tomorrow. So hopefully alot of the buds will take, if not least we are having a go. I did three t buds on my Iceberg, but it is not a big enough bush to do anymore on, so I thought I might as well use the prepared rootstocks now. If the buds don't take, or the second or third buds don't, I could still re use the canes in Spring with new buds couldn't I ? Your new budding tool, I think it could be safer for children too who are interested in propagating roses, so they don't have to use budding knives. What do you think Ozeboy and Dao ? And will this tool work for grafting fruit trees or is it a different process ? | ||
| Ozeboy Advanced Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 352 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
Dao, I posted the bud from a multiflora cane on Friday. I think this size will do away with one of the sizes as it is pretty good for the small and medium canes. The other tool will do the large well, once I regrind the drop sides off it. That sounded like a good idea when pressing the blade into the bark so as to cut all in one motion but the variation in cane size and the fact that it knocks the wood around makes it unsuitable. This new tool that arrived in the last couple of days does not even have a handle on it but cuts great, can put a handle on it anytime if necessary. I recently chip budded about 60 using a knife and removing the wood at this time of the year is slow and painful. This tool would make it a lot faster. The blow the bud off the tool system does not work as well with the new tool as it did with the old tool so will cut a push out rod for it before I use it again. The design is similar to a wad punch without holes in the sides and the only hole goes right through from top to bottom. I will take a pix when my Son comes home with his digital camera. I have used a diamond sharpening board to touch up the edge, you can buy these in those knife shops. These work better than a stone as less pressure is needed to make the diamond cut. This does not roll the edge in as much but it helps hold the bud in the tool. As mentioned the shape is same both ends and the cut can be made either end around and still fit exactly. The squashed tool made from a tool steel rod varies as the shape is not consistent both ends and must be used the same way round each time. Have a look at the bud I sent you and let me know if its what you wanted. Be aware that some modifications had to be made to make it machineable. To do a surfboard shape would have involved spark erosion and I don't have access to that type of machine. | ||
| Ozeboy Advanced Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 351 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
Dao, I posted the bud from a multiflora cane on Friday. I think this size will do away with one of the sizes as it is pretty good for the small and medium canes. The other tool will do the large well, once I regrind the drop sides off it. That sounded like a good idea when pressing the blade into the bark so as to cut all in one motion but the variation in cane size and the fact that it knocks the wood around makes it unsuitable. This new tool that arrived in the last couple of days does not even have a handle on it but cuts great, can put a handle on it anytime if necessary. I recently chip budded about 60 and removing the wood at this time of the year is slow and painful. This tool would make it a lot faster. The blow the bud off the tool system does not work as well with the new tool as it did with the old tool so will cut a push out rod for it before I use it again. The design is similar to a wad punch without holes in the sides and the only hole goes right through from top to bottom. I will take a pix when my Son comes home with his digital camera. I have used a diamond sharpening board to touch up the edge, you can buy these in those knife shops. These work better than a stone as less pressure is needed to make the diamond cut. This does not roll the edge in as much but it helps hold the bud in the tool. As mentioned the shape is same both ends and the cut can be made either end around and still fit exactly. The squashed tool made from a tool steel rod varies as the shape is not consistent both ends and must be used the same way round each time. Have a look at the bud I sent you and let me know if its what you wanted. Be aware that some modifications had to be made to make it machineable. To do a surfboard shape would have involved spark erosion and I don't have access to that type of machine. | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2566 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
Ozeboy, please email me a pic of the tool. From your description it sounds a bit like a leather punch with a tube shape that you blow at one end to push the cut scion out of the tip. Actually such a simple design would do fine for hobbyist who will only do a dozen grafts per day. It will also cut down the manufacturing cost. The only problem is the small quantity. If you make only a dozen of them, the cost is enormous! When the tip is hand-made from high quality steel like that, it surely won't come cheap. Also we will need 3 sizes to cover all diameters from small to large. With your current rootstocks which must have hardened a fair bit as Winter is setting in, if you can cut the skin well without fraying, this blade must be fantastic. I will probably get the biopsy puncher in about 2 weeks to evaluate the chance of converting it into a budding tool. | ||
| Rosemeadow Advanced Member Username: Rosemeadow Post Number: 268 Registered: 01-2008 Rating: N/A |
That sounds real excitting Ozeboy !!! Hi Justus2 and very funny about the Omega Grafter. | ||
| Ozeboy Advanced Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 350 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
Here is the latest!!!!!! The new shaped bud tool has arrived and is fantastic. I cut a bud from a multiflora cane and it came away perfectly. No wood just bark and bud. The size is smaller than the first tool and will do greater varieties of canes. Dao the drop sides you wanted to have in the first place are a failure, thats one attempt we can strike out. The tool of either shape has to be flat on the buttom as the drop sides pull wood off when twisting the bud off. Will post you the bud done today. All good things come at a price so am anxious to get the invoice. You will possibly need a Paramedic to revive you when I get around to telling you the price. I haven't tried to go cheap but to get the best result then work back price wise. I was under the impression the engineer just wanted to do me a favour and didn't want to make them at all. Any way time will tell. | ||
| Justus2 Member Username: Justus2 Post Number: 29 Registered: 03-2008 Rating: N/A |
Please think of me when you have a working model. I will gladly pay costs including shipping if you will gladly oblige me with one. Heck, I'd probably work a deal (swapping out) with you on my omega grafter! Are you interested? | ||
| Rosemeadow Advanced Member Username: Rosemeadow Post Number: 266 Registered: 01-2008 Rating: N/A |
Hi everyone. I have just caught up reading all this post. I saw the home made version of this tool at Daos and the one Bruce crafted when I visited them each last weekend. It does give a perfit fit. If you can supply me with the tool,Dao or Bruce, and Roseman can get me started with doing the budding. As well as advice from Dao and Bruce through emails and a late Winter visit from me to Sydney. Well I can supply the ground or pots, and the water for 100 roses budded with this tool. It will motivated me into learning to bud with this potentially easy budding tool. | ||
| Ozeboy Advanced Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 349 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
Dao, this shape is easiest to manufacture and sharpen without changing shape. All other methods are not repeatable. Lets put it another way, all tools will be exactly the same. Budder in Sydney buys a tool in 2008 and meets up with a friend in Brisbane who bought a tool in 2007. The Sydney guy can cut the buds with his tool and the Brisbane guy can cut the rootstock and they will fit perfectly. Thats the advantage of NC Mill manufacturing where all other methods mentioned and trialled by myself are just prototypes made by hand and are not repeatable. I believe when operators become familiar with this new tool then any number of buds is possible. The success rate has just about been determined by myself with one of the proto tools. When the rootstock is in excellent condition for budding ( growing very well ) and I take care to water the newly budded ones regularly then results are almost 100%.Personally I won't be stuffing around with prototypes anymore, if its not repeatable then I can't be bothered. You missed out on budding this season around February as thats the time the brown snakes seem to be very active. Actually a guy called to see me and parked in the front of the house. He just stepped out of the car and 6 feet away was a 4 feet brown heading across and under his car. I have a set of 5 brick steps leading off the rear patio and there is a young brown sun baking there most days. Don't know where Mum and Dad are or his siblings. Most country people know how to deal with this but rightly or wrongly I classify your family as City Slickers and don't want to be responsible for your safety when occupied budding. As previously mentioned I lost my cattle dog bitch to one and she died within a minute. THE GOOD NEWS IS I HAVE JUST LOCATED A BLUE BREEDING BITCH FROM TALLAWONG BLOODLINES AND WILL HAVE HER WITHIN A MONTH. Have a Dog lined up for her with similar bloodlines that was best dog at the NSW Cattle Dog Show. | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2562 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
Ozeboy, I think we are still far away from proving that this is the way to go. The only way is to produce over 100 roses this way. We need statistics about success rate and graft quality. This would be what hobbyists care about. Growers are also interested in the speed of the process. Unless they can get over 2000 per day, they won't be interested. The fact that this process is bud transplant, a few factors must be address 1- The use of dormant buds should not cause delay in growing 2- The likelihood of bruising is not a problem 3- The use of smaller scion has no negative effect on growth. 4- Is there a suitable patcher to work with this process and deliver 2000+ per day? (grower would want to know this) I am confident that the first 3 concerns have been addressed in my experiments, but we need real statistics. As I no longer have a big garden to carry out a significant test, only you and Rosemeadow will be able to do it. | ||
| Alee Member Username: Alee Post Number: 24 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: N/A |
.. just crossed my mind, how about having a stencil to draw the shape you want to cut on the bud wood and use the same stencil to draw on the rootstock. Then you cut the buds using a scaple or sharp blade. Since you used the same stencil the cuts will be very identical and should fit nicely. I don't know how practical this is, I am just guessing it should work. FYI, I have never done any budding or grafting. | ||
| Ozeboy Advanced Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 347 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
Hi Dao, the blade shapes you have drawn are what I have been playing around with for the past 6 months. The round right hand side is the easiest to sharpen and manufacture but it possibly makes the weakest graft. The oval with a flat bottom has worked well but is still difficult to sharpen without loss of shape. This is an improvement on the impossible to sharpen shape you gave me originally. That blade had dropped down sides and the sizes you gave me were suitable for budding canes as thick as my arm. We have now overcome that problem and the sizes have been fine tuned. The oval shape with the flat bottom works well and made it possible to bud difficult roses that did not respond to T or chip budding. Its shape is almost impossible to make unless its made from a tube shape and squashed down to oval but as mentioned before it has a different radius on both ends if made this way and must be used the same way round each time. I found this a big problem. Second problem is that when a tube is squashed the long sides end up thinner than the ends and sharpening without quick loss of shape is almost impossible. The left hand parrallel sided shape is what I am waiting for and should have in the mail Thursday.It is possible to make to exact sizes as its made by program in a NC Mill. I believe this to be the best shape to make and sharpen but only time will prove that. The handle is the least of our worries and can be made out of nylon or timber. Nylon would be best as a compression fit is obtainable. Timber is not as good but can be used to cut costs. Ejecting the bud is best done by blowing gently on the top of the tool as I was not happy when using a push out rod on the bud itself. I have trialled all sorts of punches which are available for die cutting paper ( Look at the punched sides on continuous computer paper) also many that are used to die cut cloth, foam etc but still think the new shape as shown on the left of Daos post will work best. Its taken 3 months to have made but have great expectations of it. As previously mentioned its repeatable 100% and can be turned out like sausages. If it passes as the best tool so far then place your orders with Dao as its his baby. Costs to be advised. | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2559 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
The blade alone is useless. It must be fitted into a design that will facilitate the job and keep the operation completely safe. That's why I have been working on the design of such a tool. The oval shape (must be fixed and firm) allows a slight twist action to snap the patch out of the wood. | ||
| Justus2 Member Username: Justus2 Post Number: 28 Registered: 03-2008 Rating: N/A |
Dao, when you squash the blade into the shape, do you have to hold it in this shape to use it, or does it maintain this shape when you release it? How are you able to grip it when using it? (don't you have to take the blade out of the holder?) Are there considerations about safety when using it, such as the possibility of cutting oneself? I understand more fully now as I have re-read your posts, I see that you are 'patching' not budding. I can now see the purpose and use of the punch. You are merely using it to remove a precise area of 'skin' and 'bud'. Perfect! I wonder if a leather shop would have a punch that might work in this instance? These shops tend to carry all sorts, shapes and sizes of punches. I will definitely check this out tomorrow. You might check there also...it's worth a try. | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2556 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
Ozeboy, I realised that shaping the blade is an exceedingly complex issue. It looks like the simple oval shape turns out to be the best or close to the best. I have carefully studied the blade shape and the efficiency of cutting. The wider the blade, the harder it is to perform a complete cut. Therefore the best choice is to make the blade very narrow, just enough to contain the entire leaf bud (2mm). This minimises the tugging action to both sides to completely cut to the wood and snap it out. It also makes sure that we get a near universal fit regardless of the diameter of the canes. We only need 3 blade sizes (in width) of 2mm, 3mm and 4mm to cover for slender roses like The Fairy to the largest Grandiflora. This picture shows blade shapes  I find both the rounded rectangle and the circle undesirable in different ways. The oval shape is absent from the market for some reason. But this is what I desire. Fortunately squashing a stainless steel blade will create this shape. Some punch blades are made of chrome steel to give exceptional strength and durability. The Harris punch replacement blade costs about $43. That gives an indication how expensive it is to make these blades. I wonder if it is possible at all for a small tool maker to do it. Sharpening is a tricky business and probably only ok for a few times on the thick blades. It looks like I will be able to strip biopsy punches for blades, but at $12 a pop, it's unfriendly. I think we are just doing for fun and try to achieve "surgical" transplant of buds to step up the quality ladder. At the same time we also want people to be able to carry out this procedure without actually knowing the existing budding skill. I have discovered the final touch to this procedure. The tying step is the most time consuming and prone to bruise the delicate "skin-only" scion (oval shape 2x6mm). So it has to be carried out gently and quickly. To my surprise the use of a simple wide rubber band solves this problem. The friction force is so powerful that allows me to do this knot so easily and firmly.  It will allow the buds to grow freely and Sun light will destroy the rubber band a few weeks down the track. However there is still a tiny exposure of the join to the air which is solved by the near perfect match between the scion and the hole on the rootstock. For perfection, a gentle dab with graft sealant will seal the graft from the air and rain. Look like I have all the pieces of the puzzle. I have ordered the biopsy punch. Unfortunately Winter is setting in. We can only test this in a glass house or wait till next spring. | ||
| Ozeboy Advanced Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 346 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
Hi Dao, the medical biopsy punches 3, 4, and 6mm should work fine provided they are squashed to give an oval shape which is just enough oval to remove the bud. Stainless steel is pretty soft so will not crack when squashing. However stainless is not very good for holding an edge particularly when the edge is very sharp. The average kitchen knife seems to last as its blunt compared to the edge reqiured for the bud tool. This means it will have to be stoned regularly to work well. In the hands of most people the shape will change fairly quickly. A replacement would be necessary in the hands of some one doing 100's. The blades I have made are in tool steel, machined to shape and then hardened to the point where they can't be reshaped or dropped which could chip them. These blades are expensive but should outlast 10 stainless blades. I really think you are onto something really good for the average hobby budder. The general style is similar to what I have made but my blade is set at an angle for easier use. If my Son comes home with his digital camera will take a photo. Dao you have done well to find these biopsy punches lets hope they can be modified to do the job. The quest for a perfect novice budding knife goes on. I just received notification that a parallel sided tool steel blade I ordered 3 months ago is finished and if it works well I will harden it. The program used to machine this blade is ongoing and repeatable should it work very well. The budding knife concept you worked out is excellent, its downside is keeping a sharp edge without destroying the shape. This new shape is simpler than the impossible to sharpen shape you gave me at the onset of this project, but don't hold your breath that its perfect. The down side of squashing a tube is that both ends are not the same radius and the tool would have to be used the same way up each time. This I found a problem with the first blade I made. However the new repeatable NC Mill generated tool has exactly the same radius both ends and can be turned around and fit the cut exactly. This shape will be easier to sharpen and being hardened tool steel the edge will last many times longer than stainless. The down side is it will rust and requires a spray with oil then wrapped in an oily rag when not in use. I haven't received the bill yet but when anyone mentions programs and NC Mills the price seems to multiply by 10. I am so pleased you have started to look for a tool to do the job rather than keep posting pictures of the graft. | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2555 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
I finally found a place in Australia selling a single disposable biopsy punch for $12 plus $13 shipping fee. It would be cheaper per item to buy many at the same time. But they don't have the size I want at this moment, so it will be a couple of weeks wait. With some luck I should be able to modify this unit into a workable budding tool. | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2554 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
Here is a Harris Micropunch. The biggest size is 3mm which is enough to extract rose buds. But due to the round shape, it is not exactly what I like. We would need a rectangular shape with round corners or a long oval shape to make it ideal. This punch is very pricey around $120US and each replacement tip is about 35US. As the blade is so solid, you cannot squash it.  That's why I want to source the cheaper disposable punch to get the razor sharp blade which can be squashed into oval shape. But I don't want to buy a whole box of them! | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2553 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
The idea is quite simple, I can squash the round blade into oval shape. This blade can punch sweetly into the soft bark and allow you to twist it gently to strip out an oval shaped scion. In this way you will be doing patch budding with high precision. First cut a hole on the host rootstock, discard it then cut a patch from a rose and fit it on. The match is near perfect; the cut is sweet; the time is fast. You get surgical precision which will ensure a perfect graft. I am trying to source the tool just for the round razor blade to make my own tool that has extra stuff to speed up the whole process. Unlike V grafting, bud-patching does not require matching cambium at all. A small oval blade is the answer to get near perfect match where it matters (the top and bottom parts). When the diameter different is not great, a perfect match is always achieved. My friend has just told me that they only sell a whole box of these punchers! It's so hard. I only need 1 to experiment with. | ||
| Justus2 Member Username: Justus2 Post Number: 27 Registered: 03-2008 Rating: N/A |
Dao, I am still trying to figure out your procedure here. I went to the link you provided. I cannot fathom how the tool shown can be used to perform the surgical removal of a bud and matching piece where it is to fit into. Would you be able at this time to put up a video of your using the tool and how all this works for grafting? I am very interested in your work in this. This is exactly the bane of all grafters, how to keep every graft consistent in size to maximize 'takes'. I currently use professional budding knives. They are almost worthless (I paid $35.00 for 2 sizes). Then several years ago I purchased the omega grafting tool; with shipping costs included, I paid $72.00 for it. I have yet to get a graft to 'take' with it. See it here. It is actually less expensive now that when I purchased it 6 years ago. (http://www.amleo.com/index/item.cgi?cmd=view&Words=gt3) It is very difficult to get the cambium layers to match up and even harder to wrap the graft. I have never been able to develop the skill/dexterity (?) necessary to make use of it. It was and still is a waste of my time and money. One would think that with this tool making the same exact cut on both pieces that there would be a perfect match on the two pieces. Not so; you have to take into consideration that the 2 pieces are not the same exact size. I can see with the way you are going with this, that it is a much better way. Please give us all the info you can and a video too if you are able. | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2551 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
Ozeboy, medical biopsy punchers will probably provide the blade required. They come in 6 different sizes to the max 8mm diameter which is about the size for medium to large canes. Therefore if the blades work, it's possible to get all the sizes. These are razor sharp stainless steel blades which should last very well. Each should handle over 1000 cuts. There won't be any need for sharpening as long as they are kept dry after use (stainless steel). The taper implementation is not difficult. I have tried it by using parts from a pen. A gentle push send the patch out of the oval blade then and it springs back immediately. I am hoping to get hold of a biopsy punch to extract the blade to try. These punchers are not expensive but it's hard to buy as they sell to vets who have accounts with suppliers. A friend is looking at buying it for me as he manages a lab. Here is the link http://www.medicaldev.com/biopsy_punches.php The key to success is to surgically remove the patch. When this is possible, the size of the scion can be reduced to possibly 1/4 of what growers normally do with their graft knife (bring it down to just the bud and a little bark around it). That means cane diameter no longer matters. It will be easy to achive universal fit regardless of the cane size. Together with the rapid transfer under 4 seconds, it will make up for size (making the bud highly viable). | ||
| Ozeboy Advanced Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 345 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
Sorry Dao I forgot to mention the blade taper and thought it might help you in your quest for the perfect tool. Hope you come up with it quickly then I can get back to just enjoying the roses. I suggest you concentrate on the tool rather than the end result once we get it perfected. In the meantime it leaves a lot to be desired to get it to the " Any silly old bugger can use it" stage. Now back to the taper, which has to be on the outside as we want the bud to stay in the tool. If the taper is inside the bud will fall out. I have made similar blades with a slight turn in on the inside edge to hold the cut product but don't think that is necessary with rose buds. | ||
| Ozeboy Advanced Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 344 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
Hi Dao, you advised me not to send the prototype I made so still have it. The last modification you wanted. ie the long sides to be curved down was done and the tool did not cut as well as the original flat sided profile.Not only was it not as good but made it almost impossible to sharpen and keep the shape. A round shape would be perfect for sharpening but would not twist the bud off. I have come to the conclusion that a round shape with just enough oval so as to twist off the bud would be best allround for budding and sharpening. However I have placed an order for a parallel sided blade with round ends that is worth a try to overcome the sharpening problem. Even this will be a problem for 99% of the population to sharpen without wrecking the shape. The blades I make are complex and can only be made in a first class tool manufacturing shop, hence the price. The shape I ordered is not possible for me to make as I don't have access to this type of machine. The tool is a great idea as I have had good success budding Belle Storey that is very difficult to bud by T or chip methods. The down side of this tool is that it is more suitable for HT budding.Canes that are 6mm or larger in diameter are better for this prototype. Perhaps an assortment of sizes would rectify this problem making it possible to bud older roses as well as the newer types. I have found that the cutting edge has to be perfectly sharp so as to cut rather than bruise. So the quest for the perfect budding tool goes on. You mentioned you are going to try and source a medical instrument so thought my findings may help you find the perfect tool. You have Prototype number 1 ( A metal pen part ) I have " " 2 ( tool room made blade I have on order " " 3 " " " " I will make a proto 4 which will be same as the slight oval described above. Best of luck with your medical instrument inquiries as if available will solve the current problems. Bruce | ||
| Ozeboy Advanced Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 343 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
Hi Dao, you advised me not to send the prototype I made so still have it. The last modification you wanted. ie the long sides to be curved down was done and the tool did not cut as well as the original flat sided profile.Not only was it not as good but made it almost impossible to sharpen and keep the shape. A round shape would be perfect for sharpening but would not twist the bud off. I have come to the conclusion that a round shape with just enough oval so as to twist off the bud would be best allround for budding and sharpening. However I have placed an order for a parallel sided blade with round ends that is worth a try to overcome the sharpening problem. Even this will be a problem for 99% of the population to sharpen without wrecking the shape. The blades I make are complex and can only be made in a first class tool manufacturing shop, hence the price. The shape I ordered is not possible for me to make as I don't have access to this type of machine. The tool is a great idea as I have had good success budding Belle Storey that is very difficult to bud by T or chip methods. The down side of this tool is that it is more suitable for HT budding.Canes that are 6mm or larger in diameter are better for this prototype. Perhaps an assortment of sizes would rectify this problem making it possible to bud older roses as well as the newer types. I have found that the cutting edge has to be perfectly sharp so as to cut rather than bruise. So the quest for the perfect budding tool goes on. You mentioned you are going to try and source a medical instrument so thought my findings may help you find the perfect tool. You have Prototype number 1 ( A metal pen part ) I have " " 2 ( tool room made blade I have on order " " 3 " " " " I will make a proto 4 which will be same as the slight oval described above. Best of luck with your medical instrument inquiries as if available will solve the current problems. Bruce | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2549 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
Here is an old pic from last year showing the patching that produces the "ideal" graft I think should be used in the future to create better grafted roses. There is a distinct lack of the bulk and tissues produced by bruising. It's the closest I could get to a local lateral from the rootstock.  | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2548 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
Ozeboy produced a prototype of the tool for testing. I wonder he has tried them on the bunch of rootstocks he has. I don't think this tool will ever make it to become a product because there would not be much demand for it. I am wondering about trying to make a tool myself by buying a medical device and remove the blade from it. Then perhaps I can post the instructions for people to make the thing themselves. I am trying to acquire a medical biopsy puncher for taking skin samples and use the blade. I have found that when the leaf bud is "surgically" remove and patched on a host within seconds achieving near 100% match and a clean razor cut, it almost achieves the status of a leaf-bud native to the host. The result is a faster-starting and a stronger graft making it grow just like a local lateral. This is like bringing the accuracy of organ-transplant to rose budding. | ||
| Justus2 Member Username: Justus2 Post Number: 24 Registered: 03-2008 Rating: N/A |
I am very interested in it also! | ||
| Alee Junior Member Username: Alee Post Number: 20 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: N/A |
Dao, can you please post a picture of the prototype budding tool that you guys have manufactured. Thanks. | ||
| Rockys68 New member Username: Rockys68 Post Number: 5 Registered: 04-2008 Rating: N/A |
That must be the answer! The first leaves were just forming when I removed the ties and tape. By the way, I happened on the discussions about your grafting tool. When do you expect it to be available? Put me down as a customer. | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2546 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
In that case it's probably the removal of the tie. The union is very weak at first. Only after it has grown for weeks and form about 5 sets of leaves, you would expect the union to be strong enough for removing the tie. Don't use the dental floss as it cuts into the bark quickly. In this case you should use a yarn with the width about 2-3cm. It's much better that way. | ||
| Rockys68 New member Username: Rockys68 Post Number: 4 Registered: 04-2008 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for the encouragement Dao. For bud grafting I used a razor blade and kept the buds in water, like you show in your video. They may have been out of water for more than 10 seconds, but certainly less than 20. The host plant was Dr. Huey, which is used widely in this area. The grafts seemed to take, healed well and stayed green and plump. I removed the dental floss and masking tape when the buds started growing, about four weeks later. That is when they appeared to shrink a bit, then popped loose. This happened slowly over a three week period. It was a big disappointment. I really think that the failures are related to the growing environment here. The hot and very dry air is a big problem, especially if it is windy. It will cause a mature bush to shrivel badly if it doesn't have an extensive root system, or if the ground isn't saturated with water. However bare root roses are grown commercially in Arizona, so field grafting must be possible. I just have to learn more. | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2543 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
Budding is surely the easiest way to get early success. What you have experienced could be one of the following problems - Incompatibility between the rose and the host - You might have left the scion exposed to the air for too long (ideally, just under 10 seconds). You can remedy this by putting scions into a bowl of clean water at all time (or to put them into your mouth) - You might have bruised the scion when you take a snap (skin only) scion. You might like to try using very sharp blade to cut the scion out with a little wood backing. You can use stello tape (paper masking tape) to seal the budding area with an air bubble. This will keep the spot moist and often give 100% success rate. Budding is a bit of trial and error. Once you get the knack of it, you can never fail! try again with the above tips (especially the stello tape), you will soon find that you can never fail. You only remove the tie a week (or two) after the bud starts to grow. This is because when a bud grows, it will push the scion out if there isn't a tie keeping it firmly against the host cane. This will give you a less stable union. | ||
| Rockys68 New member Username: Rockys68 Post Number: 3 Registered: 04-2008 Rating: N/A |
Dao, The layered cane has been wounded, then bent down to the ground and placed under a brick. I am not 100 percent sure that the budstock is virus free, so grafting to the cane while it is still attached to the rest of the plant may be a bad idea! I tried budding last spring, but was not successful. It looked like the grafts took, the buds stayed bright green and callus was evident around the graft unions. I removed the dental floss and tape after four weeks. Then the grafted buds appeared to shrink a bit. They pulled away from the canes. Some literally popped off. This took about three weeks after removing the floss. The desert air here is very dry, so that may have contributed. I have a lot to learn! Now I'm trying tee grafting because it is supposed to be a bit easier for a novice. My hope is that it will provide better support and hydration for the young buds. Any suggestions you might have will be appreciated. Thanks. | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2541 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
You mean air-layering? I find airlayering quite frustrating with most roses and rootstocks. I know that multiflora will root well with airlayering. As the cane still get all the nutrients from the main bush, you should have little problem with budding/grafting. You can actually perform the graft weeks before you do layering. In this way the graft is healed properly before you attempt to get some roots. Virus infection is a danger if you get infected budwood. If you use some rootstock like Multiflora (easy to root), you can just bud the roses, wait 4 weeks then take the cuttings (with a rose bud) to root normally. Budding will give you stronger union than grafting. | ||
| Rockys68 New member Username: Rockys68 Post Number: 2 Registered: 04-2008 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for the help guys. I am layering another cane for rootstock with the roots on the right end, but it won't be ready before the hot dry weather sets in here (Arizona). This reduces the chances for a succesful graft. What do you think of tee grafting to the cane being layered before the roots form, and getting a jump on the hot weather? Or does this put too much stress on the plant? Just a thought. Your website is great and really loaded with helpful information. I downloaded a copy of Dao's propagation guide, and will go through it the coming weekend. | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2529 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
I suppose you migth as well try it to see what will happen. I don't know about this myself. However I read from somewhere that there was a practice regarding this. It is something called "nursing". The idea is to use the rootstock only to nurse the graft and eventually this rootstock will fail or would not matter as teh grafted rose will grow its own roots. It's a kind of making own-root roses while boosting its initial growth using a rootstock (in upside-down manner) | ||
| Ozeboy Advanced Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 335 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
Rockys68, I would give up and start again with the rootstock up the right way. If you want to try on the upside rootstock one bud that will grow down and another that will grow up you will find out for yourself. | ||
| Rockys68 New member Username: Rockys68 Post Number: 1 Registered: 04-2008 Rating: N/A |
Hi, I'm hoping you experts can help this beginner with a question. I want to try tee grafting, and have a tip layered Dr. Huey for the rootstock. The cane is rooted at the tip, so is planted upside down. Do I align the bud graft with the cane (upside down) or the roots (right side up)? I'm inclined to try two grafts, one each way, unless someone here knows better. Thanks for the help. Rick |
