| Author | Message | ||
     Rosemeadow Senior Member Username: Rosemeadow Post Number: 598 Registered: 01-2008 Rating: N/A |
Thanks Men for all your advice. Will read over it again when I am not so tired. I will keep trying to bud until I get it right. | ||
| Ozeboy Senior Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 497 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
Karen, so you don't become confused Dao keeps his rootstock longer than me before budding so the tops are larger and more dense than mine thus providing better shade cover. I do not have the top growth that Dao has as my rootstock is newer, younger and only 3 months old. Hence using grass around them to shelter the buds. However I plant out in the ground and Dao possibly in containers. The grass has a disadvantage as it grows so fast and has to be kept back at various times but does offer good protection of younger rootstock. We all seem to develope our own systems. Recently I started T budding and changed bask to chip budding forgetting to go back to chip budding bud cutting style. These are the little things that make the difference between average results compared to almost 100%. | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2949 Registered: 07-2003  Rating: N/A |
Budding in hot summer like this, you get best success rate trying the following things 1/ Avoid direct afternoon Sun, put up some thing to shield the plants 2/ Make sure the plants get plenty of water 3/ Use white paper tape to shield the graft from hot wind. 4/ Pick the day that would be followed by a few days of relatively cooler weather (under 35C) I also notice that rootstocks go to sleep too when the heat is so high. Leaves are also affected by fungus. However but cutting them back and water them well, they have a new growth spurt in 4 weeks. That generates enough sap flow for grafting to work properly. I have recently got quite a few grafts using the bud transfer method with oval blade. The union looks beautiful with almost no scarring. They look just like a lateral coming out of a native leaf bud. I have been collecting pics of these graft union at various stage of growing to be included in my next update of the propagation guide. Karen, you will eventually improve your success rate. When you bud on a bush of rootstock, you should get near 100% success rate at all time (including early winter when temperature is between 8C - 16C). It's more of a clean cut and quick insertion of the scion and clean tying action. If you have speed problem, just have a water sprayer handy and use it to keep the cuts wet at all time. It will allow you to work slowly. When you bud on a bush of rootstock, pick lower stems or hide them into the shade of the bush after you complete the budding. The shade of the bush provides the best protection for the grafts. | ||
| Tasv Member Username: Tasv Post Number: 86 Registered: 08-2008 Rating: N/A |
I wouldn't put the bottles around the buds... if it was too hot without it, it will almost certainly be too hot with them... like little mini hothouses, even if shaded... you wouldn't need much sun to cook them. One thing I read, but haven't tried yet, is soaking the buds in a solution of rooting hormone as well as described here: http://www.rooting-hormones.com/rose.htm in the section on budding and grafting (though looking at it further the description is based on fruit tree not roses.. they are extrapolating a bit). The website also described a process called stenting... where the bud is grafted onto the understock and then the understock is struck as a cutting (you could use your bottle method in the greenhouse). Again... I haven't tried this method yet either. So far (taps head) all my buds look good. When the only tool you own is a hammer, every problem starts looking like a nail... | ||
| Rosemeadow Senior Member Username: Rosemeadow Post Number: 597 Registered: 01-2008 Rating: N/A |
Hello Alee and TasV. All the buds, except two or three, have died. Its too hot I reckon. Also I tried not covering the bud but winding the tape ever side of the bud to see if this worked better. Because nearly all my grafts die after I uncover them. Also I have found a huge rambler growing next door and I thought I would try grafting on this, the canes go horizontally. And the rambler is in alot of shade I think, so this may help my grafting sucess. Also a idea came to me about somehow using two 1.5 litre coke bottles cut off around the neck, then joining them with sticky tape so the the two spots where the lids go are at eigther end. I was thinking you could thread the budded can through the new two open ended bottle and then sticky tape the cane into place, with the budded bit in about the middle of the bottle. You would tape each up with tape with just the cane comming through and then tape around onto the cane so as to keep the bottle in place, without hurting the cane hopefully. So with the bottle in shade/semi shade on the rambler, I thought the buds might callous and grow well with moisture being created in the bottle. What do you all think, is it a silly idea ? Thanks TasV I forgot aout Veilchblau having been used as a rootstock before. I did try grafting onto some of my species roses earlier in Summer but none worked. So I will try grafting on Veichenblau, under my plants where there might be shade as they have grown well. Just had another idea, I could lay some shade cloth over the top of Veilenblau after I do the budding. Might pull out another bud or two from all the varieties of cuttings that Billndee sent me that I have as cuttings in bottles, and try to bud again on the other weeper rootstock and on the Veichenblau and cover both with shadecloth. And try my bottle idea too. Will take some photos Alee. Yes TasV, I want to have each way bets so I deffinitely get the new varieties being sent to me, whether its on own root of by T-budding. I plant my rose plants deep as I have very deep soil, and hopefully they will grow their own roots or I can try to grow own roots from cuttings from them or keep grafting them on, when I get the ability to get alot of sucess with this method. I think I am getting better at the grafting and the rootstock wood sliped nicely but this morning after 24 hours they just look like alot of battle scars with dead wood, as I also de budded the weeper roostock before I started the grafting. | ||
| Alee Intermediate Member Username: Alee Post Number: 159 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: N/A |
Tasv and Rosemeadow, I think that's a wonderful idea. It would be interesting to have some pictures. | ||
| Tasv Member Username: Tasv Post Number: 85 Registered: 08-2008 Rating: N/A |
I did this today as an experiment too... I budded three buds of Pierre de Ronsard and one of Rosa gigantea onto one multiflora stem (growing on one of my large multiflora plants) that was weighted down to grow horizontally. The experiment is based on the method of growing climber stems horizontally which triggers all the buds along the horizontal section to begin growing so the rose can make vertical growth on which it can flower. So theoretically if you bud a whole lot of buds along a single stem and then tie it horizontally and remove most the understock buds then the plant will divert its resources into these buds and once they take they will also start to grow vertically. They can be left on there until they are quite long (several sets of leaves at least) at which point the long understock stem could be removed and cut into sections containing the bud and struck as a cutting and because you are essentially striking the understock and not the grafted variety the success rate should be higher and the it should occur in a shorter time. When/if mine take I'm going to cut the sections fairly close to the graft (on both sides) and then wound underneath the budded section when I plant the cutting to increase the callousing area and move it under the bud where there is more undifferentiated tissue. I guess this way you could strike them in winter or summer using any one of many methods... and it would almost be like growing it on its own roots then too. I think I read about this idea on here first... I think it was Dao that suggested it... don't remember... Karen... you have Veilchenblau don't you? That's a multiflora hybrid and has been used a lot as an understock too. I'm guessing that Violette, because it too is a multiflora hybrid, could also be used with some success... as a temporary measure. You only want them to start growing this way don't you... then propagate own root specimens from it... is that right? When the only tool you own is a hammer, every problem starts looking like a nail... | ||
| Rosemeadow Senior Member Username: Rosemeadow Post Number: 596 Registered: 01-2008 Rating: N/A |
Hi Alee. TasV suggested it. Like when you peg roses down or tie climbing roses horizontally, it produces more blooms. This should make the sap flow better. I grafted 25 buds onto one weeper rootstock today. I probably should have only done about 10, but ah well. Since then I have found out a big rambler, bit thorny, thats on the next door property. I will try using as a rootstock. | ||
| Alee Intermediate Member Username: Alee Post Number: 158 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: N/A |
Rosemeadow, what's the reason behind tieing the canes as horizontal as you could. | ||
| Rosemeadow Senior Member Username: Rosemeadow Post Number: 591 Registered: 01-2008 Rating: N/A |
Sorry Guys, I have been away getting use to TasV's new forum. Your Crepuscule looks great Dao. I would like to do a Creuscule weeper one day, I saw a great one in a public garden in South Australia. Thanks for all the imformation, men. I have actually given the weeper idea away for a year or so as I am using these two rootstock canes to graft lots of different roses onto it and then I will cut it up into small rootstock lengths with a growing grafted bud on each and then get the rootstock pieces to grow roots. I am doing this as I have had cuttings sent to me today and I wanted to do cuttings and T- Grafting with each variety. The rootstock wood sliped open very well. I have tied the canes down as horitzontal as I can, TasV, luckily there was another small weeper not far away I could tie too. Thanks for telling me about that. The weeper idea grown from another weeper will have to wait as I was desperate for roostock the right thickness for grafting ( hopefully ! ) but any roostock that now grows from Albertine will be welcomed with open arms. I cut it off the year before, silly me ! | ||
| Roseman Senior Member Username: Roseman Post Number: 429 Registered: 05-2004  Rating: N/A |
Tasv, I will use bush length rootstock as our talking point. They are cut about 200mm(10in), all the eyes are removed but the top 2, the chosen buds are placed below this, 180 deg apart and one just below the other, hope this clears it up a bit more. More if you require. | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2944 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
About 7 years ago I saw high quality standards with a perfect single crown union on top selling at 2x the price of standards that have 2-3 grafts. I wondered why and how they created those. Soon later after trying making many standards using 1, 2 and 3 eyes, I realised that the best way was to do only 1 eye. I discovered that these growers must have used a slender and long rootstock cane for their standard/weeper. They budded only 1 eye and wait 2.5 years for the graft union to form a round crown on top while giving the plant enough time to thicken the rootstock. This is why the best standards/weepers often have 1 perfect crown union on top and a very old looking earth colour bark. That was why the price was double. You won't find these great standards/weepers on offer now. Flower Power in Sydney is selling weepers for $150/eac and still they budded 2-3 eyes to get quick top growth size. All nurseries have gone the quick modern way. They bud 2-3 eyes on thick rootstocks and try to sell at about 12 months from the budding date. The initial growth makes the plant look nice but soon down the track, only one eye will become dominant. If you are lucky, the top eye will become dominant. If you are unlucky one of the lower ones will be dominant and the standard/weeper is skewed forever to one side. If you trim off all the other grafts, the left over graft will be to harden and the roostock is too thick for the graft to grow into a perfect crown. I normally bud 2 eyes when the climate condition is not perfect. As soon as they take (3-4 weeks), I destroy the weaker eye. In the picture, it looks skewed but after 16 months and a couple of pruning sessions, the graft will become perfectly balanced as it engulfed the top of the slender rootstock. I think when people propagate for personal use, quality is what we want. Therefore doing a single eye with patch budding makes good sense as this creates the strongest graft which will become perfectly balanced 2 years down the track. | ||
| Tasv Member Username: Tasv Post Number: 80 Registered: 08-2008 Rating: N/A |
When you bud two or even three how far apart do you do them? I assume you snip off the top bud of the understock so there is a large internode at the top and then put them all into this internodal space. Is that about right? When the only tool you own is a hammer, every problem starts looking like a nail... | ||
| Roseman Senior Member Username: Roseman Post Number: 428 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Tasv, in the commercial world, this what happens unless progress has changed the past ways of budding. Bushes are budded with one eye, as they are close to the ground, standards have 2 eyes as they are further from the ground. Weepers have 3 as they are the as far away from the food chain as could be, sunlight and photosynthesis, one lot of food up, one lot of food down. I at home bud 2, not for good looks Tasv, rather if 1 bud fails I have my second bud as a back up. | ||
| Tasv Member Username: Tasv Post Number: 79 Registered: 08-2008 Rating: N/A |
Do you ever bud the rootstock on two sides to improve symmetry? When the only tool you own is a hammer, every problem starts looking like a nail... | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2943 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
Karen, here are the pics of my Crepuscule weeper that was separated late Spring. I think this was from a cane around last Autumn. I budded it and left over winter. I did not cut a ring of bark at the bottom until late winter this spring. As it was a Multiflora so it rooted easily. I only had very few roots at the time I separated it from the mother standard. Roseman, the spot I cut was under the soil line right close to where the sucker started. It was thick and very woody and the bark was brown. It's not easy for the rootstock to root in my case because the pot was too warm. Generally it's easier to root when the bush is in the ground.   This weeper is very tall. It must be a bit over 2m and would be over 180cm after planting. There is only one graft at the top where the diameter is small. If it's planted into the ground now, within 1.5 years union crown will "eat" the top of the rootstock cane to form a perfectly balanced crown. I believe that if they produce weepers this way, the quality will be superior. Just let the rootstock throw up these watershoots, do budding on the bush to get the rose graft to grow rapidly using the strength of the mother bush then attempt to separated only after the graft union has turned into a good crown. It's probably not economical unless you have a lot of land you don't know what to do with. | ||
| Roseman Senior Member Username: Roseman Post Number: 427 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Dao, do you do it on wood that is green or lignafied | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2942 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
Karen, I created tall weepers in the way Tasv described all the time. It's best done when the top growth is strong. I normally only cut 3/4 of the ring around the bottom of the cane instead of a whole circumference. I notice that cutting the whole circumference did not make any difference while running some other risks to the cane itself if it suffered blackspot causing rapid loss of leaves. You can bud any rose on the long cane once it stops getting any taller. However you risk virus infection if you use infected budwood. I normally bud away without worrying about virus. It normally takes only 2-3 weeks for the rose bud to grow. I always bud only 1 single rose bud because the success rate is always 100% when you do it on such a healthy cane still attached to the mother bush. As soon as the bud start to plumb up after 2-3 weeks, you can trim the rootstock growth completely without any risk. The rose will grow and flower naturally within a few weeks after that. By the time the roots show up at the bottom, you can cut and plant it. At this point it depends on the weather. If the climate is cool, you have no problem. If the climate is warm, wait until you get a forecast of a cool week to do it. You will need to trim back the top growth and remove all leaves so that it won't dry out witin teh first week. More roots will grow and the new plant will be self-sufficient in its water need when new leaves start to show up. If you separate the new cane and the mother bush at end of winter, you have nothing to worry about when the temperature is still under 15C. Generally I get tallest weeper this way because the canes tend to be very tall (2m or higher). Also when the separatio happens, teh rose already grown large and flower several times. I have one Crepuscule created this way atthe moment. It's still in a little pot so the top growth isn't very big. Will post a picture tonight. | ||
| Rosemeadow Senior Member Username: Rosemeadow Post Number: 590 Registered: 01-2008 Rating: N/A |
That sounds a very good idea TasV, I will do that. I will post a photo too David, as soon as I can. | ||
| Tasv Member Username: Tasv Post Number: 78 Registered: 08-2008 Rating: N/A |
Along what David was talking about if they have come out from under the ground you could try just digging away the dirt and either fully or partially ringbarking it, or using the traditional slanting upward cut, and then backfilling it to allow it to layer. Then you could just snip it off and pot it on when it had formed roots and the 'host' plant can keep it alive while it's happening. When the only tool you own is a hammer, every problem starts looking like a nail... | ||
| Alee Intermediate Member Username: Alee Post Number: 156 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: N/A |
Rosemeadow, wish you good luck. | ||
| Roseman Senior Member Username: Roseman Post Number: 426 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Karen any chance of a picture of the rootstock. If you can could it show where it is on the weeper. My idea is to try to get it to send out some roots and then bud onto it. | ||
| Rosemeadow Senior Member Username: Rosemeadow Post Number: 588 Registered: 01-2008 Rating: N/A |
Hi Dao, I have 2 rootstocks on my weeper. They have grown so quickly, one is as tall as the weeper itself and the other one nearly as tall. I have left them thinking I would get you to walk me through budding them. I don't want to do another Abertine Weeper, which is what the weeper is. So hopfully I pick the bud wood from a healthy rose. Could you post here when you have time, also I will look on your grafting manuel script too. Maybe I should cut them and lay them down and try to get them to take root instead with a cut plastic set up to cause misting along the whole length in sand. I might try one now and one in winter. Also I am going to do your other idea, about putting rootstock for budding into the hot house, as they are not growing very well outside. My hothouse roses grew exceptionally in there but they got the mildrew and black stcky stuff on their leaves that spoilt them completely. But it shouldn't hurt a small row of prepared rootstock canes ( that already have roots ) in with the vegetables. Then I might have some rootstocks ready for Autumn. |
