| Author | Message | ||
     Alee Intermediate Member Username: Alee Post Number: 168 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: N/A |
Ozeboy, how are the long canes doing? | ||
| Ozeboy Senior Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 479 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
Hi Dao, as previously mentioned I am into budding at present and doing about 40 to 50 a week as the budwood becomes available. I have about 600 rootstocks ready for November budding. I tried for more but the rootstock became too old. Have a lot of rootstock growing very well, its too green now so will be cutting this in January for March- April budding. Spring is my busy time with chickens and bees so tend to bud more in March-April when we get those heavy showers. Have just built a 2 car garage that matches the house so there is not enough time for everything. Should I have time and run out of rootstock for my current budding program will do the standards. Mushroom | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2890 Registered: 07-2003  Rating: N/A |
Ozeboy, are we all sick of the constant rain recently? I don't know at your part but it's been wet, wet and wet for me for nearly 2 weeks making the rose blooms looking so dull right now. I don't know when this wet spell will end. It's just perfect time for budding right now. I guess it will be pretty wet and relatively cool until the official start of summer in Dec. It's the best time for budding right now. New budded plants will sleep over summer and grow nicely into autumn. That's why every one doing spring budding. | ||
| Ozeboy Senior Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 478 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
Justus 2. The method Dao gave to make a paralell cutting knife for budding will turn out pretty ordinary. The idea has been around for years and can be seen in most grafting books. I did mention this to Dao sometime ago and he did not reply only to bring this up again in his post to you. Firstly you need to determine the distance the blades are apart and cut a piece of timber to that thickness. The blades ( Olfa Snap Blades preferred ) are positioned on either sides of that timber giving greater control over their width. On either side of that place a piece of timber to build up the handle to a comfortable thickness. You now have 3 pieces of timber with the centre piece guaging the width of the blades. The epoxy is important as you need a slow curing type as the 10 minute types are hopeless. Use this to bond the whole sandwich of blades and timber together. Make sure the blades have been degreased and use tape to hold this together then in a clamp or vice.Caution is required to make the timber deeper than the blades so not to have the razor edge deeper than the handle. You can make 2 blades, one for the vertical cut and a wider one for the horizontal cut producing a rectangular shaped patch bud. The blades can be sharpened on one side of the blade only by using a very fine stone like an Arkansis stone or a fine diamond coated strip. These are very smooth and will keep a razor edge on the blades if used after 100 cuts. Stainless blades every 25 as they are very soft. As the points of the blade do the cutting sharpening is very quick and with this type of blade they can be snapped off when the points are no longer suitable. You now have a precision cutter that should last for many years and be constantly razor sharp which is necessary for budding. Mushroom. | ||
| Ozeboy Senior Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 477 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
Dao , what part of Sydney has cheap water and who wants to keep standard new budded plants through the heat of summer? Can't agree with you on this one either. Am budding bush and climbing roses this November but will leave the standards until later. | ||
| Justus2 Intermediate Member Username: Justus2 Post Number: 136 Registered: 03-2008 Rating: N/A |
Roseman, I think somewhere in the 'patcher-budding' pages where we discussed all this, I noted that I had visited a leather shop and found some leather punches. I tried them but with the walls of the punch being slanted I would have to do some serious filing to get it right. I also tried holding a straight razor blade like Dao showed in his propagation video, but I couldn't keep it straight enough to get it right. Guess I was nervous about cutting myself with the straight edge. All my previous successes were always with using a budding knife in the regular way. I really would like to see someone get something on the market that would do the job as intended. Excellent concept, but the devil is in the details, as we say. Dao instructed me on how to do the wood and blades, but with my husband's health issues, there wasn't just enough hours in the day at that time I could devote to it. I may tinker with it this winter to see what I can come up with, but if the bottom falls out of this mess with the world's financial crisis, I think I will be through with it all for good. Roses don't fill the gas tank and I don't see them on the menu! You know what I mean? | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2888 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
Justus, you can make a thing like that yourself. I suggest taking a piece of wood, use a small saw to cut 2 parallel tracks and insert 2 paint scrapping razor blades. Instantly you have a double blade cutter suitable for the purpose. You need 2 sets because the gap between the two blades must be different for the horizontal and vertical cuts. Then you need to secure the blade very firmly other way they slip and can become dangerous. To do tihs you need a epoxy type of glue that come in 2 tubes. By mixing the content from the two tubes, it heat up and bond into a clear glass surface that will bond almost everything. You mix this glue, fill the tracks before inserting the blades. This guarantees to bond the blades into the wood permanently after 5 minutes. I think the blade will last about 200 cuts. That would be plenty for home use. If you want to keep the blades sharp over the months, you need to rub machine oil on the blades and keep them in a dry place. I used to make this cutter myself to do patch budding. You still need to use a blunt knife to push the skin flap off the budwood and the host. The speed of this patch budding is awfully slow but the fit is perfect. I think you can save yourself a lot of trouble by buying the largest disposable biopsy puncher, squash it to make the oval shape and use that with citrus. I will start bud patching soon using an oval blade. Roseman, I only manage to keep about 30 of the multiflora cuttings growing after the inverted cuttings experiment. I still need to find time to put them in individual pots and put a saucer under to make sure they get enough water to become succulent enough for patch budding. However I would like to emulate stenting this spring. Do you have some multiflora stems that is mature enough but the bark still slip? I'd like to try bud patching on them and root them in shade in spring. I want to see if it's possible to rapidly produce stentlings this way while taking advantage of the superior graft union that the bud patching process offers. If you like to try it yourself, I will be happy to mail the budding tool to you. It'd like to see this experiment done and documented properly. | ||
| Roseman Senior Member Username: Roseman Post Number: 411 Registered: 05-2004  Rating: N/A |
Sandra, some where back in the old brain I recall that you can actually purchase a budding knife with the 2 blades at one end. The cutting width would be the same at all times. If you think of tram or rail tracks that is what you end up with. 2 cuts across your wood and 2 down your wood. Just a thought. | ||
| Justus2 Intermediate Member Username: Justus2 Post Number: 134 Registered: 03-2008 Rating: N/A |
I worked all day with my roses getting them ready for their winter hibernation. I had tons of weeds to pull and soil to add to the pots. Next year I am going to seriously experiment with the corn gluten in my containers. It is totally organic, no chemicals,...yeah!.....and has a natural propensity to stop germinating seeds. Hurrah! I saw that "Preen" also now puts out a product (corn gluten..again) that they list for containers....but of course, that is a brand name product and sells for $$'s more than the generic stuff at the local feed and seed. Anyway....as I pulled the rose pots out of the line, I came across the Dr. Huey's I started back in the spring. They are humongous! I had trained a couple of basals to bamboo canes (Dr.Huey) for budding later. Very good idea, as they are nice and straight...perfect for standards. I look forward to getting them budded next spring. My Fortuniania has tripled in size. I believe I will be able to get a bunch of cuttings started next spring from it, especially with the greenhouse set up with the misters. I was also surprised at the size of my Lady Banks (white) and Rosa Laviegata. I guess some neglect is okay (at times...haha) as I always seem to kill my plants with kindness. Another interesting note: Last Tuesday, my husband John and I went to visit a gentleman who had come by the greenhouse where I work; he was looking for some citrus trees for stock. I wasn't there that day, so the employee gave him my name and number. I rang him up to see what he had to say. He had not been successful in grafting his trees these past 3 years and wanted me to advise him. During this visit, he told me how they would tape two budding knives together to cut patches of bark out to bud the trees. Bingo! I immediately thought of the patcher Dao and Ozeboy had been working on. He said it worked great. (I hope to get him to show me later how his double-knife technique works. I didn't tell him about this forum.) All I could offer was suggestions on technique, sanitation and timing of bark slippage, and forcing of the bud. I am pretty interested in citrus also, so I will be trying my hand at it, probably next spring. | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2882 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
With so much rain in Sydney right now, I don't think water is an issue. All water tanks are over flowing at the moment. | ||
| Ozeboy Senior Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 476 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
Dao, thanks for your suggestion bringing the budding time forward but due to the price of water in Sydney will have to be more economical and bud end March. I don't like keeping or looking after things longer than necessary. It's a bit like planting rootstock in March April for Nov budding when planting in August for Nov budding works just as well. Because of the larger numbers being worked water and labour is a big factor. Mushroom | ||
| Ozeboy Senior Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 474 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
Hi Dao, it's the network 6am very fast 9am fast so will have to give 6pm to 10pm a miss as no doubt everyone is on the computer. Must apologise now I have found the problem. Mushroom | ||
| Rosemeadow Senior Member Username: Rosemeadow Post Number: 512 Registered: 01-2008 Rating: N/A |
I am not having any trouble, your site is working smoothly for me with the satellite. | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2873 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
That's a problem of the overgrown Internet with so many layers of things. The main problem is when a page is not downloaded completely. The browser does not know how to display it properly. The only way is to click stop and reload. ADSL broadband is the worst. That's why almost all complaints are about ADSL. The problem is much worse at peak time when people come home and hop on the Internet in the early evening. Visitors from overseas seem not to have problem with this site even if the speed is slow! I asked my friends from many parts of the world to try and they did not have problems. It's really impossible to explain. | ||
| Alee Intermediate Member Username: Alee Post Number: 106 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: N/A |
I have never had problems accessing this site from Maldives. I've been visiting this site since mid 2007. | ||
| Meryl Senior Member Username: Meryl Post Number: 875 Registered: 02-2004 Rating: N/A |
Dao, I am a total klutz technologically but it's hard to attribute the problem to the connection when people are having no problem with other sites. Lots of sites have downloads as complex as this one. | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2872 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
It's not the computer. It's always the network connection. Since I moved to TPG I had a lot of problem initially. But after I got TPG to fix up my connection, everything is now sweet when I connect from home. It's very hard to get them to customise the settings for eachc onnection! I had persist over 1 month to get it done. The reason why some people on bad connection have more problem with this site because of the images and fancier page layout which add to the size of the page download. In these cases, going back to dialup modem at low speed actually work better! Broadband is a curse when it does not work properly. | ||
| Ozeboy Senior Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 470 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
Sorry guys might have to give this forum away as it just took 5 minutes to bring this page up. My computer is a Dell 18 months old and I am with AAPT Broadband. Mushroom | ||
| Ozeboy Senior Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 469 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
Hi Tasv, thats the rose that didn't root at all, every one a failure. Will try to find the name of the rose that gave 100% rooting. The multiflora looked OK. Rosemeadow, you would have a rabbit proof fence out your way so the long canes could be tied to that to keep them upright but I tend to like the grass covering and the ends for rooting in the dark potting mix to give heat around the bottom end. Mushroom | ||
| Rosemeadow Senior Member Username: Rosemeadow Post Number: 497 Registered: 01-2008 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for the information about the biggest rose Tasv, I have stored that too for looking at tonight. | ||
| Rosemeadow Senior Member Username: Rosemeadow Post Number: 496 Registered: 01-2008 Rating: N/A |
Thats great Ozeboy, I will try it next year too as I really want to learn to do weepers. There is so much to do though, and not enough hours in the day ! I think I can see a very tiny bud starting on Jon Duan. Its a side bud, the original one didn't make it but all around that area was green. The Bishop Lodge roses are - Bishop Lodge Jane Isabella Bisop Lodge Speragina Bisop Lodge Sulamanesqui Muriel Linton Ah Mow The Alister Clark rose Larry sent me are - Lady Mann Sunlit Squarter's Dream ( did your budwood from Pamela take ? ) Mrs Albert Nash Henry Brunning ( I thought it was dead but some shoots are comming up from the ground so I don't know if it is Henry or rootstock, as I plant the graft under the ground. So there is hope for Mrs Fred Danks yet even tough the can above the ground is dead.) Marjory Palmer Sunny South Dividend I will list the teas tomorrow, also a noisette. | ||
| Tasv Member Username: Tasv Post Number: 37 Registered: 08-2008 Rating: N/A |
Hi Bruce... sounds promising... one the largest rose... it's reputed to be a specimen of white banksia in Tombstone Arizona... a real monster covering more than 8000 sq feet! http://www.aztriad.com/rosebush.html} When the only tool you own is a hammer, every problem starts looking like a nail... | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2870 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
Ozeboy, you would not have to wait that long. If you plant them in shade now and slowly move them out to morning Sun, you should get them ready for budding in 2 months. If you wait till Mar, you risk leaving them going into Autumn and won't be available for budding until next spring. You only need to get a lateral about 25cm long to give enough sap flow for budding to work. | ||
| Ozeboy Senior Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 464 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
Rosemeadow, I checked the canes in the Styrene boxes and have had very good results from Multiflora and 3 very long rose canes. The other canes did not root at all, these were from a rose said to be the largest rose in the world but can't think of its name. It has leaves similar to Fortuniana. Will leave them laying down until March then stand them up and pot then bud in April. That's if my wife doesn't want the grass cut that the canes are laying in. I think the system looks good. Mushroom | ||
| Ozeboy Senior Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 448 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
Dao and Alee, sorry to say " I haven't had time to look, they are still in the boxes with the canes covered by weeds". The temperarure is starting to get up high enough to promote root growth so will check them out in the next month and let you know. I like the canes covered with weeds to keep them cool and moist with the root area in the black potting mix. Rosemans method of callusing looks great so to try it on long canes I would just push the rooting end right through and out the other side of the box leaving 25mm pertruding and then pull them back into the potting mix to root. I have had success allowing rootstock to become covered in weeds to keep them out of the sun rather than in a shade house. Its a lot cheaper and fits into my low maintainence type gardening. When one gets old any labour saving methods look very good. Will keep you informed on their progress. | ||
| Alee Member Username: Alee Post Number: 95 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: N/A |
Ozeboy, did the long canes rooted with that method? | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2721 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
There is another way that should work just as well. Instead of turning the canes up side down and use the heat of sun light, we can use bottom heat. In this case, there are two ways to do it. I also see that once can use a 50w aquarium heater to keep the water at the bottom of a square plastic container warm. Fill the bucket with small rocks and sit the bottom of the canes on the rocks. Then fill the container with newspapers to shut out the light. The moisture, darkness and warm temperature will make the bottom of the cuttings callus. The top of the canes should be cover by white plastic to keep them cool and moist. Roseman's method really turns my attention to pre-rooting treatment of the canes. Perhaps by doing this pre-rooting with rooting gel, one can stimulate the production of root cells and speed up the whole process. I am going to have a bunch of interesting experiments to do this winter/spring period. The weather is unusually warm this winter. I have a feeling that roses will start growing very quickly at end of this winter. | ||
| Rosemeadow Advanced Member Username: Rosemeadow Post Number: 382 Registered: 01-2008 Rating: N/A |
Thank Ozeboy. I will just try a few if Roseman doesn't mind me raiding his multiflora bushes again. I will try what you said too Dao. | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2716 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
Ozeboy, if you still have a few long canes, please try Roseman's technique of using the heat from the sun to start the callusing process at the bottom of the cane. I am curious how this will work with long canes. The idea is to wrap newspapers at the bottom of the cane, lift this end up higher for a 3-4 weeks and expose it to the warm sun light. The temperature inside the sealed newspapers roll will be warmer allowing the callus to form while the other end stay completely dormant in the winter cold. I think it will work with long canes because it does not require leaves and sap flow for callus to form. Rosemeadow's short cuttings did just that a while ago. You might like to use a black spray can make the tip end of the newspapers black so it will attract more sun light in winter. In the milk container method I proposed, it's quite slow. It assumes that the leaf must start growing first in late winter before the other end could callus and grow roots. Your current method might just achieve the bottom heat effect. The black potting mix might just get enough sun light to warm up and stay warm enough for roots to appear first. You would be able to compare the two cases. | ||
| Ozeboy Senior Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 402 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
Rosemeadow, the long canes in styrene boxes is just an idea I had when short of time. The idea is that wind should not interfere with new roots when laid down. Had I had more time would have strung a long piece of fencing wire under tension between two posts. Then put the canes direct into pots under the wire. Then tie the canes three quarters from the top to the wire. Unfortunately the canes were from 1.5 metres to over 4 metres long so would have to have about 3 wires at different heights. Its been raining here non stop since they were set up, would like them moist with a lot of sun to warm them up to help callus and rooting. That's the general idea, Dao seems to think it will work but who know's. Will let you all know the success rate. | ||
| Rosemeadow Advanced Member Username: Rosemeadow Post Number: 377 Registered: 01-2008 Rating: N/A |
This was a very interesting thread, thanks Dao, Justus and Ozeboy for your posts. I might copy your idea Ozeboy ? | ||
| Ozeboy Advanced Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 384 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
Thanks Dao for your words of encouragement, if successful I will put your name on a couple and keep them for you. | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 2677 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
I think they will be fine at this time of the year. The climate is cold enough for doing this in full sun. The only thing to watch out is at end of winter when they want to grow. They often start first with growing some leaves rather than growing some roots. That's when they risk loosing water. I think you might even avoid this risk because the black potting medium you have there will attract sun light. The warmth of the mix might help the canes grow callus and roots before they grow leaves. | ||
| Ozeboy Advanced Member Username: Ozeboy Post Number: 381 Registered: 03-2007 Rating: N/A |
I'm trying to root tall canes for tall standards and came up with a thought that this may work. Have only planted about 50 in styrene boxes, they vary from one and a half meters to just over 4 metres. Who knows they might all die but its worth a try, nothing lost with a small batch if they don't take.  | ||
| Justus2 Member Username: Justus2 Post Number: 25 Registered: 03-2008 Rating: N/A |
Dao, cut the (rooted) grafted sucker from the parent plant a week or two before planning to move it. Leave it in place; do not disturb the rooted part. This way, the rooted sucker will be weaned from parent and be sustained by it's own roots during the couple of weeks. It will have developed the ability to survive on it's own before suffering the shock to it's system by being moved. I have found this to be an excellent way to transition rooted plants of any kind. | ||
| Dmaivn Senior Member Username: Dmaivn Post Number: 1481 Registered: 07-2003 Rating: N/A |
I learn a new thing every day. This is an old thing I already knew but got it perfectly done thsi time around. I had a slim sucker from a 2 years old bush rose. I let it grow as tall as it can by tying it against a long stake. It got to about 2m height then a bunch of laterals started to grow at the top. That was where it stopped growing taller but rapidly improved its thickness due to the healthy top growth. Even these suckers look a bit slim at first they are just perfect to make outstanding weepers or standards. So I bud it up with the rose I want at the desired height. Then I strip the bark at the base of the suckers and cover it with soil. Soon it will have lots of roots. Then next Winter is the ideal time to cut it out as a bareroot and plant it properly. The slim start means it will grow the graft union properly into a nice round crown ball. So just one single graft will make a nice balanced weeper rather than the 2 or 3 grafts on commercial roses. This kind of weepers are quicker to make, fast to grow, of higher quality than commercial ones and best of all, FREE! It looks like the sucker did no harm to the original bush's vigour just by adding more dynamic lifter to the soil. The flowering does not seem to be affected. The trunk of the bush actually grows much thicker and that means better performance next year. |
